The Order of Hyssop Promotion Policy

[DL]

Oof, yes yu pretty much hit it on the head what i was talking about. It is not as if we don't look at 2-3 positions from us. My suggestion would make it more competitive for more people. If a grand patron or great grand patron had to watch more than one level below them we would get even more production up the chain.

Name/%Quota
Player 1 115%
Player 2 102%
Player 3 100%
Player 4 125%

Player 4 qualifies passing player 2 and 3 but not passing player 1. Player 1 saw player 4 making that kind of xp and hunted enough to not allow being passed. Player 4 had 110% + an extra 5% for each additional move for a 2 spot move. Player 4 only missed the move past player 1 by 2%.

I think you would see way better production from the chain under this scenerio!

Though I see your reasoning....if you look at our chain list....110% is attainable by some but not all....and your proposal is only attainable by a select few mainly yourslef....our managers offered a very fair proposal for EVERYONE....multiple jumps is not fair except to the 1 or 2 players who hunt major big time hours or have tons of vassals that not the average chain member has....you are asking for a proposal that benefits you yourself more than anyone else....this is not in the best interest of the chain as a whole.

Would I like to move multiples...yes...however not at the expense of never being a vassal of those I surpass.....after lv 126....what defines the difference between any of us or makes one feel they should be higher than another? Once again I point out that originally NO ONE was going to move from thier original placement.....our managers have taken the time and a lot of thought into offering EVERYONE the opportunity to move if they wish.

Why not embrace the opportunity placed before you if you wish to move up and every 42 days make your move?

Oof clearly stated this would not make 100% of the members happy....but would definately be fair to at least 90%. I think the happy % will be higher than 90%. To those in the 10% of unhappy...please remember than our managers did not have to come up with this idea...however...they put all our best interests at hand...and felt opportunity should be given despite the fact initially no one was going to be able to move. We did not have this complaining in the FC and it is EXTREMELY hard to move up from there....why has the OH brought out such dissatisfaction? For starters....by moving into the OH...you have almost the entire allegiance under you...even at the bottom of the chain.....and no one ever stays at the bottom for long!....it was not that long ago I was the lowest 126....there used to be about 18 players seperating Qa'zienn and me...take a look now...I count 2 between him and me....people come and go all the time so moves happen even without promotion opportunities.

[acaddict]

Understood, wasn't asking for the promotion criteara be changed. I was just making a suggestion for discussion. Would i move more than one spot if i could, maybe maybe not. My point is this would be a way to get people more than one spot above the promotion point to hunt a little harder so a double jump wouldn't occur!

I won't suggest it anymore

[Wimp Lo]

erm, sorry phade

Next time I will count the words to know if it is you or Oof

I guess the downside would be losing loyalty when you move from top to bottom, but wouldn't everyone else stay with the same patron for a longer time until they reached the top and moved down again?

Anyway just a thought.

Wimp Lo

[Trekman]

I admit I am somehow confused. Not about the actual policy.
But as reasonable those percentage numbers might be, I rather have real XP numbers behind them so I can figure out the consequences for my gameplay.

So please let me try to explain how I interpret that policy and then correct me

The OH is pretty far above the chain position where any quota cap kicks in.
So the policy paragraph saying "100% passup with a 12 mil. cap per week" in reality means "12 non-chain mil. per week".
This enables us to convert the percentages to fixed, real XP.

For simplicity lets calculate here with full reporting periods of 21 days for both me and my patron, although in reality (due to reswearing etc) some period might be smaller.

The reporting period is 21 days = 3 weeks, therefore the max. period quota is 36 mil.

The %quota column tells how much I am below of above those 36 mil. within the current reporting period.
110% in that column means I produced 36 * 1.1 = 39.6 mil.

If your %quota column is at least 110%.....
So the first promotion requirement is to produce at least 39.6 mil. in the current reporting period.

5% of the reporting period quota (36 mil.) are 1.8 mil.

....AND is at least 5% higher than your patron's %quota
So the second promotion requirement is to produce at least 1.8 mil. more than my patron within the current reporting period.

The %quota column is based on 21-day-periods but the promotion period is 42 days = 2 reporting periods. So when a promotion period is ending only the last, current reporting period is checked - because the 42 days are not for checking quota, but only for maintaining a better Loyalty Bonus.

Any basic flaws in this interpretation ?

[Oof]

Your logic is right, but the percentage calculations don't match what is used in the database. One of the reason I doggedly say "100% of XP, or 93.75% of XP, plus 12 million per week added XP" is because that's the way the database deals with the numbers.

Ranger has a set of calculations to figure quota, no matter where you are in the Food Chain or the Order of Hyssop (it's all one database). The quota factors in the assumed automatic passthrough rate of 93.75%. If someone were to lose vassals without having leadership trained, or get mad because they got killed and log off without leadership buffs and with vitae, they likely will NOT be passing through 93.75% automatically. They are, however, responsible for making up whatever they are short.

The biggest difference though, is when the database shows 110%, it means 110%, not of the XP you are required to add to the chain, but of the total amount of XP involved in being passed up in the chain.

The amounts of XP required to to add each additional 1% above the required quota gets to be massive fairly quickly. Yes, at the lower end of things, everyone is required to add 12 million XP per week, which isn't really very hard to do anymore. However, if people exceed 100% of quota, the fact that the percentages are based on the total amount of XP being moved around makes the numbers become very large, very quickly.

I tried to explain the math on the other thread you posted tonight. Please let me know if it will help if I run some actual hard numbers and posted them for you.

[Culticon]

this can't be a good way to do this here is my example, see if this makes any sense it may not lol. from my postion look at my vassal % 106 right seabrooks is 126% , but look at the credit row my 110 mil to Sea's 140 mil I have almsot hunted for the same amount but my % is alot lower cause of having a good hunter under me. So basically I will be pass because my vassal has not recieved as much as I have.


I am not whining about this. But I am sure there are other examples of this in the chain where this happening but I don't think its a good way to do it.

I think we should protect the people who hunt for 100% or better cause they are not just soakin the exp.

[Oof]

Culticon, the example you gave is one of the reasons we changed the measurement tool to the %quota column instead of the %vassal column. The %vassal will give all sorts of weird numbers because everything is relative to how well you did, compared with how well your vassal did.

Thje %quota column is the same for everyone. Since everyone's required quota is the same, everyone has the same benchmark to use with the %quota column.

[Culticon]

well my point is its kinda hard for me to get the higher % when I have to push up even more exp than I did before. Its not like I am just hunting for my quota like some people are. So when when I am passed then its my turn on bottom I will be blowin the big % up my patrons tail pipe hehe and end up switching again so whats the point. I have no desire to move the chain is workin great for me and I am not that greedy I just wanna see the bonus go up

[Oof]

I'm probably not explaining it very well. Everyone should theoretically be able to get exactly the same % numbers.

The %quota column is: 93.75% of whatever your vassal passed to you + 12 million XP added per week.

The 12 million is always and forever 12 million, no one gets confused about that number.

The 93.75% of whatever your vassals passes to you is automatically passed up for you (as long as you meet the leadership and loyalty requirements for the chain, which everyone should), so no effort is involved in that part. Well, some effort would be involved if anyone ever forgot to buff their leadership, loyalty, and willpower before logging out. As long as everyone stays buffed all of the time, the 93.75% is automatically passed up for you, so, whether people move up or move down in the chain, the %quota column should remain fairly consistent in it's numbers. The only thing that will change that number much is individual hunting effort.

As far as moving in the chain, I personally agree with you, I doubt that I will move even if the opportunity is there because I worked a long time to get my loyalty bonus where it is. Even later, when Borg grows enough to join the OH, I doubt that I'll move him around any more than what is required.

[Dax]

I'd like to apply. It's not that I don't love being flankers vassal, and I do. But I'd like to move up in the chain, and as we used to call it in volleyball.. capatalize. Besides, I pass up too much xp with a really uber vassal hunting under me 24/7 so loyatly bonus isn't really needed here.

Oh and trekman.. Damn that's a cool looking sig pic, is that federation vs bird of pray?

[acaddict]

I just need to add, the loyalty bonus is huge!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You can make quota so much easier ( and that means you are passing way more xp up )! Remember 10% or so is just rediculous xp when ya think about it as far as pass-up. I logged on tonight with 91 million xp from vassals (granted not all from the chain....my vassals all have the 240 hours bonus except for the chain.....urrasa must be getting close ).

If you move up one spot, you will likely have to wait 3-4 months to get that back unless you have a macroing program keeping your character on 24/7! If everyone is thinking smart, you would not move up one spot in the OH! Absolutely would not be worth it!

[acaddict]

Well, i will have that macroing program tomorrow. If i don't answer tells, i am just building loyalty bonus!

[Trekman]

Good Idea !

I will let Trekman stand in his house as a "non-selling TradeBot" to build up that bonus.

As far as I know there is no indicator of "Sworn Online" time so we have to estimate ?

[Ian Mac]

OK, I know I'm a little dense, but just isn't making any since to me. I DO understand that people are proud and want to move up, but moving a person one spot is senseless.

Acaddict moved one spot above me. In doing this I lost my loyalty bonus with Az, and I think Acaddict was close. So this is all lost just so that someone can move one spot. Help me understand the sense in this. How does this benefit the chain? The OH is already the top of the chain.

[Oof]

It doesn't benefit the chain at all.

Looking at it from strictly an overall chain point of view, any chain movement, other than to remove non-performers, is bad. Before and after a promotion, the same characters are in the chain, and those characters are most likely hunting for the same amount of raw XP each week. With the loss of loyalty bonus a chain movement causes, promotions actually hurt the chain.

Now, looking at promotions from an individual's perspective, moving up one single position in the chain probably makes very little difference in the amount of XP the promotee will receive from the chain. Basing promotions on a long-term perspective however, enough single position moves will results in moving up several places in the chain, given enough time and enough promotions.

The original intent of the Order of Hyssop was to not have any promotions at all (not to "protect" anyone's position, but to minimize the loss of loyalty bonus). The 21 proving period before being placed was put into place for the same reasons, to protect the loyalty bonus by making sure we didn't put someone in the chain who couldn't make quota. Enough people said they wanted the ability to move up positions in the chain, so we wrote a promotion policy.

The only was I can see that a promotion policy will help the chain is if the possibility of being passed by a vassal will make people hunt harder. There is a liklihood that will happen. As people hunt harder to either pass their patron or to keep from getting passed by their vassal, THAT will be good for the chain overall.

Bottom line, will actually taking a promotion help the chain? The chain, no; the individual character, yes rarely it might help. Most of the time though, it won't.

What I would encourage everyone to do before posting for a promotion is to look very closely at the XP being recevied currently, and the XP being received by your patron (make sure you take out for the XP you are adding to your patron). If moving up will result in more XP for you, the promotion policy is in place, so post and move up. If, however, moving up will NOT result in any significant gain in XP, DON'T MOVE UP. Moving up will result your loyalty bonus, the loyalty bonus of your new vassal (old patron) and the loyalty bonus of you new grand vassal (old vassal). Until 240 hours of ingame time has passed, you may even see a loss of XP as the result of taking a promotion.