Chain managers............... Im pissed

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Post by Kazsam » Sat Mar 27, 2004 6:04 pm

You said, "I shall be staying in LD, I like the majority of people in the clan." If you're trying to say you no longer like me (if you ever did ) then so be it. Though I would rather have everyone like me and all of that, but I'm going to do my job as a chain manager first, and worry about people liking me later.
Umm now you making me out to be pissy AND immature .......... OOf you did not come to mind I made the above comment.

You have a job to do, I dont hold it agianst you personally that i disagree with you on this occasion
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Post by Oof » Sat Mar 27, 2004 6:09 pm

I offer you a heartfelt apology Kazsam. I didn't know what you meant for sure, and I'm probably more than a little sensitized about things right now. I didn't mean to make it sound like I was accusing you of being immature, though going back and reading what I wrote there isn't much any other way to take what I wrote. I'll edit the post to get rid of that part and, again, I'm sorry it came out sounding that way. :oops:
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Post by Thorgrim » Sat Mar 27, 2004 7:12 pm

How to make this better? It is a tough job no doubt. Oof, I want to thank you for posting. I can honestly say you've never once made a post that didn't make sense, can place yourself above anybody. I commend you on that.

But tell me, when you made the OH, you simply moved everyone accordingly, (as not to lose loyalty bonuses???) ok, if thats the fact whats the problem here? In my mind, when I heard that there was going to be a new chain, (above the rest of the chains) and I saw that the number 1, and 3, and so on spots of my current BIGBOI chain, the OH, wanted to join this newer, kick ass chain, I would have simply moved them into spot, and continued to swear people in according to level.)

Isnt' that the way its always been? I remember being put into the bottom of the chain, because I was the lowest level. I still remember when guys like Starting Over, Gimped Mage and Seabrook left, a new rule was implemented. You LEFT, and you come back, no matter of level, you get put under the LOYAL people who stayed, (ei: Last 126 on the list)

DO YOU GUSY REMEMBER ANY OF THAT?? SO please, I can't stand to hear about how this new chain's list was thought of. Last 3 months of xp's??? I'm still very disapointed by this. TO me, in my mind, you'd simply look at who was in the chain, and where their positions where. The people who wanted to step up to teh plate, and take the challenge of making hidious amounts of xp (for the rules as they are now) would simply move aside into a new order.

To make a short expample of the 4 people at the top of the OH at the time


Kaz (goes to 400 mill)
Muneman (steps aside, and becomes the top of the OH
Thorgrim (Goes to 400 mill, and swears willingly to Kaz) its just right
Ly Slik (stays where he is in 400 mill chain under Thorgrim)
Red Shirt number 1 (joins Muneman under OH as 2nd there)
And so on.


WHy in the world would you hvae thought up of such a plan as to put the highest producing people at the very top? Does this not totally go against your idea of stepping down when you hit level 200? in order to pass up, and feed the chain?) To me, (in my opinion) putting the people at the very top is a blatant attempt to give the monarch teh most xp's for his buck!)

Hey dont' get me wrong, Panzer is monarch. He does a great job. He works OT all the time I'm sure. He's got a HELL of a crew behind him. (namely Oof for starters) Its sad to hear that he's getting shafted when it comes to xp. Its wrong. Take that up with Turbine. Dont' burst my ozone, buy placing a few other people above me for the fact that they hunted a bit more during a misely 3 month period. (one of them, who has JUST come back to AC)

In placing Blue Wizard (no offense to this guy, I've met him a few times, and I do like him) But this goes totally against what you did previously to guys like Starting OVer, Gimped Mage, and Seabrook (to name a few) guys who use to have like 170% pass ups. You gusy would state, it was never about xp's. Yet now that Turbine has nerfed our chains do you somehow change ideas about it, and state that....Well, Kaz, Thorgrim, due to the fact that EVERYBODY was in limbo, we've decided that you are currently not quite good enough to remain at the top part of our chain. We'll put these young guys in there (young guys meaning hungrier??) in the top spots, so the monarch gets more exp's.

Guys, lets face it. A monarch (in this case, and in the case of Youkay's time) was simply a figure head. Its true. (Panzer is a great guy, he plays Trousersnake now) perhaps more out of necessity than pleasure at first In order to give his head a break. Being monarch is a very thankless job. You become everybody's parent (The n00bs anyways) I've talked to Youkay about this. He played Whiskee in order to keep playing, and stay away from the constant flurry of tells from people wnating to know how to get to Arwic..........Or people bumming for equipment! In a monarchy this big, you can't keep one guy at the top. He needs help. SO I feel bad that panzerfaust (toon) is getting shafted by this. But isn't it a bit of an ego trip knowing that you're name is the biggest monarchy on solclaim? Its gotta be QUITE a feeling.

I won't go into any great details as to making a huge list up, cause I agree with you Oof, you can't make everyone happy. Its impossible. Nor Do I agree with making an alphebetical list either. Thats as crazy as the 3 month notice list. (which, I guess I didn't read that correctly, cause no where, or anytime did it ever dawn on me that I would ever be positioned anywhere but near the top of any new chain that I applied for due to my "TIME IN". To me, it was just common sense. So I hope you can understand how I felt when I saw me, and kaz switched around, and then BOOM, placed near the middle of the list. PFFT! I honestly couldn't believe it, or couldn't understand it.

So thats my fault for not taking the time and reading properly. I don't agree with setting up a list upon reasons of TIME SPENT either. Again, you are totally giving yourselves WAY too much work here. Thats why I have to sit back, and ask myself, "WHAT WERE YOU THINKING??" totally doing away with any chain structure we had, and making an entirely new chain based on..........................NOTHING????

I'm really at a loss of words when I think of the fact that You, Oof, have alwasy had to make quota. I totally disagree with this, and I think its a travesty! Its horrible. You've been nothing but loyal to Panzerfaust. Not everyone realizes it.

I saw that I was removed from the chain due to orders. Not sure what to think anymore. I really have to sit back, and take another look at things and tell myself, Its just a game. (A GAME) I would definately work my ass off if the positioning were done differently, and I could see Kaz as #1, and myself at the #2, Slik being #3, and so on. Why in the world do the rules alwasy change suddenly? It can't be simply about the xp nerfs. Cause in the end, thats what they are. XP NERFS. Panzer should be fuming, but you don't sit atop the biggest monarchy on the server and be selfish about it. Thats not how it happens.

As a whole, this whole idea of catering to the accessive exp spoils has got to stop. Has anybody else noticed how many members we've lost over the last 3months? WHOA. its time to look into that. If things keep going the way they are headed, its truely only bound to get worse. IF Kaz nad myself were slightly more hotheaded, and hadn't built up a loyalty feel to LD, you would have had at least 15 more people gone. (kaz's account, my 2, and I know that there are other loyal people to myself in general who would leave in a heartbeat once I stated that I was gone.)

This isnt' a threat! Please don't take it that way. I like where I am right now. I think you've made a big mistake in a bogus way of placement on your next reward chain. I know a few people not speaking out. People afraid to get removed from chain. (why I have no clue.......not making any xp's anyways???)

But seriously, how many people have not at least ONCE looked at hte chain listing, and wished they were at the top......I know of NUMEROUS people who have requested being moved up due to the fact that their patrons weren't making enough xp's........don't tell me thats not EGO talking there! Why would I give a hoot if MUNEMAN was failing quota, or not at a 120% rate. I should care about who's under me! Never once have I requested a move up. If I had, I might be #1. (no offense to kaz) but it makes me strive tomake more xp's, and keep that Spot.

I take nothing away from any of the other toons that make oodles morexp's than myself, but where do you draw the line? You can't promote anyone because they are higher level than anyone, You can promote them because they've been there longer, you can't promote them because they quit the game, and then came back, and now, it appears you can only promote someone because, they have more time to hunt than a few others. Perhaps its time to look into taking care of your vassals, socially. Learning a fewmore quests.

I don't know anymore. What hapens now? I take a week off, and if I request entrance into the OH, I'll have to be put at the very last 126 Spot? The rules are so unstable now, and they seem to apply differently to just about everyone. The more I think about it, the more I get disgusted by the whole thing. I have to say it again? WHAT WERE YOU THINKING??? I wish others would post with approvals, and disapprovals. (again, the gusy currentlyposted above our slots, could be a bit biased since, well, They just got a HUGE promotion.) There is a certain amount of Pride that comes from being in the top spot. And I assure you, the xp's sucked at the top! But I've always said, free xp's, is free xps.)

Do what you will. Once you come up with a final decision, I don't know if I'd apply. Cause as far as I know, you'll simply dump me in the bottom or the middle. I can pretty much kiss my top spot good bye. LOYALTY? I think that just applies when its convenient. The proofs in front of you in black and white. And staying with the idea that you can't make everyone happy, I can't remember the last time I heard anybody bitch about wanting to be promoted, or their patrons weren't making enough xp's. or vice versa. It seems to me, you've spent a whole dollar in order to save a few wooden nickels. Go ahead, and Ask Martha Stewart how she feels about that??

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Post by Oof » Sat Mar 27, 2004 9:53 pm

I'll post an answer in here later tonight. I'm not putting off answering anything but I have yard work to do and it will probably get dark before I'm done as it is.
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Post by Phade » Sat Mar 27, 2004 9:53 pm

So much words.. will have to read when I get home lol
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Post by Oof » Sun Mar 28, 2004 5:48 am

I had a much longer post typed up, replying to all of your previous post Thorgrim, but then it hurt my head to read it and figured that no one would probably read it to the end, so I edited it to this much shorter post. I think I answer most of the pertinent issues I haven't already answered in previous responses. If I left anything out let me know. If I need to I'll cut and paste the original answer into a reply.

The reason we kept the loyalty bonuses intact when we made the OH was that it made sense to do so from an xp perspective. It was better under the old system for the chain to do things that way. With Turbine's recent changes the idea of a built up loyalty bonus doesn't work anymore.

I tried to make people aware placement would be based on XP. I mentioned it in the original post. I clarified it in another post and even boldfaced the "based on xp" part. I understand perfectly that it is very easy to read over things. It's human nature to see what we are expecting to see.

Yes, I painfully remember all of it. I remember having to tell people like Gimped Mage something they didn't want to hear. I remember hearing them argue that the millions and millions of xp they had generated before they left should count for something. I also remember it was decided that what was best for the overall chain is what needed to happen so their petition to be placed higher up was denied. Yes, I remember all of the arguments both for and against maintaining loyalty bonuses when the OH was formed, many of which were in the manager's forums and which general populace never saw. I remember explaining, along with some of the other managers at the time, that loyalty bonuses were a GOOD thing, that they helped the chain because they added a lot to the productivity of the chain, etc.

Why in the world would we think to put the highest producing people at the very top? Because the next highest producing people would be directly below them. This way, everyone gets rewarded proportionately to what they give to the chain and it makes for a stronger, more stable chain.

Putting the highest producers at the top has nothing to do with maximizing the xp to the monarch. To think otherwise is insulting to the monarch.

You said placing Blue Wizard goes against what we did previously with Starting Over, Gimped Mage, and Seabrook. That is a completely wrong statement. S.O., Gimped, et al were denied preferential placement because they left the clan. Blue Wizard never left the clan to go wear another tag. He quit playing AC for a time, but to my knowledge never left the clan. Gimped and the others were told at the time, that if they hadn't changed tags to someone else they would not have been placed below the bottom 126.

I never stated nor implied that Kazsam, or Thorgrim, or anyone else wasn't "good enough" to be at the top. The current top xp producers are at the top of the listing because that's the way it should be. Let's say I were to decide to reward loyalty to the chain and decided to put Oof at the top of the listing. There would be complaints all over the place and you know what the number one complaint would probably be? "Oof doesn't deserve to be on top because he hasn't earned it. I make way more xp than him!" If you think about it you know it's true.

I understand how you felt when you saw your name was eighth on the list instead of second, knowing that you were thinking the OH listing would just be collapsed into the new listing.

WHAT WAS I THINKING?? I was thinking that in order for us to have a strong chain that attracted other people we would need to group characters by similar output levels (not capability, but output. we are all pretty close to each other in capability). I was thinking that if we didn't reward high producers by giving them a strong chain vassal, the patron would get disillusioned and quit.

Regarding me making quota, I appreciate your sentiments and thank you for them, but I should have to make quota. Especially under the new system, making quota is even more important. If I don't make quota now, I cheat the chain member above me of his or her well-deserved xp.

Rules change to reflect changes in the game. That's also in the nature of the beast.

Regarding people afraid to get removed from chain and therefore not speaking up, I hope that isn't true. I wouldn't remove anyone for anything other than breaking chain rules.

Yes, you were removed from the chain due to moves, but you haven't left the clan. As long as you haven't left the clan you can come back to the FC or the OH at your true level. If Kazsam decides to stay out of the chain, you just became #1 in the OH. I don't know about with the new chain, we haven't talked about what happens if someone leaves one chain and wants to come back in that one.

I don't get where you are seeing they apply differently to different people. By this point, I also wish people would post stating either approval, disapproval, or even "doesn't matter to me." Yes, I agree with you that xp at the top (in the old chains) was worse than partway down. For what it's worth, btw, when Oof dropped from the top to the bottom, I was getting about 90 million a day on average near the top and about 30 million a day at the bottom of the OH, so your question about whether my move was driven by a desire for more xp is answered now.

You said,
Do what you will. Once you come up with a final decision, I don't know if I'd apply. Cause as far as I know, you'll simply dump me in the bottom or the middle.
I'm sorry you feel that way. There was no reason for you not to know what would happen, since it was all written out in the chain threads. I followed the criteria I had stated in writing I was going to follow when I built the chain listing.

[Edited to take out something else I wrote I later decided wasn't appropriate. My apologies to all who saw the original content. I lost my temper and said some things that were probably out of context so I removed them. Oof.]

I probably understand the new chain mechanics better than anyone else in the clan, and everything I've done with this has been an effort to make the new chain work as efficiently as possible, be as stable as possible, and, hopefully, to make it something to be striven for.
Last edited by Oof on Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by sinnistar bow' » Sun Mar 28, 2004 12:26 pm

I didnt read everything that has been written here, too long and i have to work today :/ However i read enough :/

But i think some other opinions might be helpful, I understand in some fashion the amount of effort and time that Oof has put into this chain.
And I understand where both kazsam and Thorgrim are coming from.

A couple quistions on the matter.

1)There was a discusion thread on the new chain, did anyone use that thread, to express there interest in a senoirty style chain? Kazsam or THOR?

2) Oof how far back did you go and did you think that that would represent thor or kazsam, or any other high fc/oh chars full tenure in the chain.

Oof bieng the hard working insightfull chain manager you are, I know you saw some disagreements coming. placing blame and or arguing the topic will not help, from either side.

Bottom Line this can be Fixed.

I know this Becouse this is By far the best group of poeple when they work as a team to acomplisgh a goal.
I Work in a Senority based style job incentive based aswell and am Fairly high on the list.

In closing becouse i produced more xp in the period you based this list on, I still feel that do's not warrent my spot in the 100 million chain.
Giving the information you previusly posted oof yes you are right and i trust your judgement.

However I would like to see a chain that better represents ld's long served memebers and would give my position willingly to correct this Oversite.

Yours truly sinnistar bow'/ Diabolic mage
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Post by Thorgrim » Sun Mar 28, 2004 2:07 pm

I've had a friend that just came back to the game, and I gotta equip him, and set him up. I'll post some more on this later.

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Post by Trekman » Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:31 pm

Wow - so many posts that are even larger than Trekman-Posts.....and just about the position in an XP chain ?????
In a chain system where position is not even relevant anymore after the XP change ????

And now even withdrawals from the 100mil chain ?

Because of "unconsidered loyalty to the clan/chain" ?

Lets see - Trekman was created Sept. 2000 (not 2002, not 2001).
He has been the main toon ever since, and (without checking ACStats specifically) I reckon he is one of the oldest *active* toons on SC.

He has never changed clan since swearing to his first patron Woo Chee.
Yes - he never actively changed tags, the clans were merged and so he ended up in LD.

This shows that he has been loyal to his clan since 2000, a time most of the (still active) toons in today's LD were not even created.....

2000 !

Not 2001, not 2002.

According to what I read here HE should be on top of the 100mil. chain.

Do I demand this ? Of course not.

If I would need some visible gratification for my clan loyalty I would demand to be sworn to the monarch directly. This is the "highest non-monarch position", not the top of some XP chain.....

What is this REALLY all about ?
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Post by Phade » Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:40 pm

I'm pulling out of the 100 mil chain due to laziness, not lack of xp or possition in the chain ;)
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Post by Thorgrim » Sun Mar 28, 2004 11:25 pm

LOL. I have to start out here by saying, YES< yet another USELSS, non related, "I have no idea what I'm talking about" trekman the axeman post. I knew it was coming, and I'm surprised it took this long :) Trekman, You bowed down when the OH was created, and then asked to be promoted to the OH. The opportunity was there like the rest of us, to work your way up. Due to circumstances, at that time, the rule was all about LEVELS. (3 levels above a patron I believe) well, many of us surpassed you.

The idea of promoting due to length of having a toon in game, was mentioned a few times as a possible fixer upper. (not in mymind, but well........enough about that)

OK, to make a REALLY long story short, What is, IS. and its evident that it won't change. Please post some instructions here to get Thorgrim back in the OH (for now). I've got a few more skills to max out, and I can't bring myself to macro! :)

In the end, My mind is made up, about what is wrong. As the numbers of your monarchy dwindle, (and we lose yet 2 more people, and who knows how many accounts again today) A very sad day again in LD history. N00bs are few and far between, and its not everyday we gain new blood. (some yes, but not like before).

There are very many good people in this clan. Good people in EVERY clan. So lets end this thread here, cause its definately not going anywhere.

Kindly post instructions to get me back into the chain. I will be swearing to a friend of mine in the meanwhile to give him a few xp's till I'm called to active duty again. (A friend that deserves a little pass up)

Thats the OH. Spot me where you will, Cause the lustre, and pride is gone from any placement now. (Great thing eh?) :roll:


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Post by acaddict » Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:25 am

You all should know, if Oof did go back 1 year............that would place me in the number one spot without a doubt!!!!! Do you see me complaining? Do you see me sucking my thumb saying i should be treated differently? Grow up people and just adjust as everyone else has to! The game has changed......face it!

My god, what I have read in this thread is absolutley apauling! LD rocks and I feel so bad for oof even having to explain himself :cry: Oof works his ass off for us, why make his job any harder......he is the most fair person I have ever met and yet we have people bitching about his decisions and the decisions of the rest of the managers.

I just don't understand how being at the top of the chain could be that important. We are in it for the whole allegiance and i disagree that if yur in a chain you are not in the allegiance. If that is the case, I would rather yu not be in a chain with me!

If you are only here for the chain and not willing to help others in the allegiance then thank god you are leaving :evil:



This is a sorry to Oof: I know you would not have said this so bluntly, but my god, they were commiting a crime here!

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Post by acaddict » Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:44 am

I have the right to say it........I'm not a manager............stop sucking yur thumb and take a little responsibility! :P

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Post by acaddict » Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:47 am

Sorry, the more of this thread I read the more I just get discusted! Many of those comments made me become childish as well, sorry!! I will try to not read anymore :D

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Post by Trekman » Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:54 am

Thorgrim wrote:LOL. I have to start out here by saying, YES< yet another USELSS, non related, "I have no idea what I'm talking about" trekman the axeman post. I knew it was coming, and I'm surprised it took this long :) Trekman, You bowed down when the OH was created, and then asked to be promoted to the OH. The opportunity was there like the rest of us, to work your way up.
Well - apparently you think that "I do not know what I am talking about" after almost 4 years of playing. Obviously my post was not useless at all, at least it tells me now what you really think of me - that I write "useless posts" and "do not know what I am talking about".

Of course I joined the OH Chain - after taking time for consideration and weeks after that chain had been invented. So you can see I did not drool for more XP or a "chain career" as I did not join instantly after creation.
And I joined as lowest level 126 like all the others.
I did not ask for special treatment nor did I receive one.

As far as I remember I NEVER asked for promotion within the OH.
My last promotion was within FC, according to the numbers from the Chain Page, to a position the Chain Management had defined for me from those numbers.

All the members below me entered OH after me, *maybe* some others joining after myself even passed me during promotions (didn't follow the boards closely in this respect).

So when joining and during promotions I did NOT ask to be promoted to some higher position than the numbers indicated and I did NOT start an "I am pissed" thread addressing the Chain Managers in an otherwise public thread (instead of using a PM which I didn't either).

So how can you possibly compare those two scenarios ?

And I did NOT accuse someone else of "not knowing what he is talking about" or define his posts as "yet another useless" when he did not share my opinion.......
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