Chain managers............... Im pissed

A board dedicated to the Last Dynasty's Chain.
Kazsam
Professional Farmer
Professional Farmer
Posts: 1229
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2003 5:28 pm

Chain managers............... Im pissed

Post by Kazsam » Fri Mar 26, 2004 11:51 pm

Ok the more i think about it the more pissed i am!!!

The new 100 m chain is a nice idea, but realistically we all admit the xp you recieve will be purely from your vassal , there is no such thing as chain anymore,

Sooooooo... why is the new chain listing as it is???

The person at the top will recieve no more xp than trhe person at the bottom, so after 19 mnths in ld and at top of chain under whiskee (who i have continued loyalty bonus with) im pissed to be finding im now 9th down from the top!!!


Top does NOT mean more xp, but it does IMO show my loyalty to LD , i could have gone ff to ruthless, LSD, Ages along time ago if i had been xp orientated,(and maxed all my skills out) but i wasnt i stayed loyal to LD like alot of other people, and how am i being rewared ?? by being moved DOWN in placement on th new 100 m chain

unTil now i hav fully supported the chain managers decsisons, but now i really dont see where they are coming from,

I am VERY unhappy about my new placement in the new 100 M chain and my reason for being there. !!!
[img]http://lastdynasty.net/pics/kazsamsig.jpg[/img]
<Shindhi_AC> without you kaz, AC woudl be a lot more boring =)

User avatar
Thorgrim
Farmer
Farmer
Posts: 610
Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 6:15 pm
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada
Contact:

Post by Thorgrim » Sat Mar 27, 2004 12:11 am

I too have to agree 300% with Kaz on this one. I'm very disapointed. Perhaps its just Ego talking, and even though I stand to lose my loyalty bonus by leaving Muneman and swearing to Kaz, I'm highly disappointed with BOTH our placements. Ive been in the clan, and the chain for almost 2 years. HIGHLY disapointed.

Its always been my dream to rise to the top of a chain. For me, its a prestige point. I've allways looked to people at the top, and aspired to be there. Guys like Trinity Willow, Seabrook, Kaz. Please rethink your decision! I would like to see Kaz keep her spot, and Loyalty bonus, and See me swear to her. (I hear she gives nice gifts to vassals!) No, thats not true, But I have gotten some axe's off of her.

PLEASE CHAIN MANAGERS. rethink this. If its no big deal, then why shouldn't you change it?


Thorgrim
Kill em' All, Let God Sort em out.
HAR HAR!!!
Live and Let Live
I should be Monarch

User avatar
Thorgrim
Farmer
Farmer
Posts: 610
Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 6:15 pm
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada
Contact:

Post by Thorgrim » Sat Mar 27, 2004 12:17 am

Seriously, We've been with you guys longer than most, if not THE LONGEST. through good, and the bad. Please rethink your decision of placement. (again)


Thorgrim
Kill em' All, Let God Sort em out.
HAR HAR!!!
Live and Let Live
I should be Monarch

User avatar
Culticon
Professional Farmer
Professional Farmer
Posts: 1465
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2003 7:45 am
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
Contact:

Post by Culticon » Sat Mar 27, 2004 1:22 am

lol there was a guy that wasn't even in a the food chain or the order above me on the list. You know see where I stand on this I am out! I am not mad I am over it. Kaz said it all :?
I don't have a problem!:evilbat:
:boink: Culticon level 203 Grief BM :boink:

Friend of LD :)

User avatar
Oof
Allegiance Council
Posts: 5453
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2003 4:13 pm

Post by Oof » Sat Mar 27, 2004 1:26 am

Posts noted. I'm typing up a reply in between doing other things. When I'm done with it, I'll post it (tonight). I just posted this to let you know I'm not ignoring you.
Allegiance Council Member
Oof@lastdynasty.net

User avatar
Culticon
Professional Farmer
Professional Farmer
Posts: 1465
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2003 7:45 am
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
Contact:

Post by Culticon » Sat Mar 27, 2004 1:39 am

hehe I don't want my post taken as a negative rather as a positive to help the chain. I just don't think it was done in a way to keep the LD faithfull happy.


Also I broke a rule cause I am too passionate lol. Please remove my chain manager status. I should have not posted out in public my dislike for the chain list. Sorry!
I don't have a problem!:evilbat:
:boink: Culticon level 203 Grief BM :boink:

Friend of LD :)

User avatar
Oof
Allegiance Council
Posts: 5453
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2003 4:13 pm

Post by Oof » Sat Mar 27, 2004 4:04 am

This is long. Read it anyway. :x

I'll do the easy part first. Culticon, it takes a lot more than letting your human side show on the boards for you to lose chain manager status. I've done it before, Heatmiser has voiced a dissenting opintion or two, etc.

I'm not sure how to answer the first couple of posts in this thread. I hate jumping back and forth between posts, so will just quote and answer Kazsam and Thorgrim as part of a self-contained reply.

Kazsam said:
The new 100 m chain is a nice idea, but realistically we all admit the xp you recieve will be purely from your vassal , there is no such thing as chain anymore,
Yes, the xp you receive will be (almost) purely from your vassal now. I had stated shortly after the allegiance changes were announced that chains as we knew them were over, that the new chains will really just be getting an assigned vassal, but that chains would continue to exist for those folks who want a producing vassal but don't want to do the work it takes to recruit and retain high producing vassals. The idea behind the chains now is to get one good, working, vassal and levy an xp requirement on them that yields enough xp to the patron to make the hassle of being in a chain worthwhile.

Kazsam said:
Sooooooo... why is the new chain listing as it is???
The characters were sorted by xp, just like I stated I was planning on doing in the announcement post here, and quoted below: http://www.lastdynasty.net/board/viewtopic.php?t=9096
Right now I am planning on splitting the applicants into two different groups, the Crazy-High group made up of those characters whose XP production over the past three months have been far above the norm, and the Rest-Of-Us who sign up to make the 100 million quota.
Kazsam said:
The person at the top will recieve no more xp than trhe person at the bottom, so after 19 mnths in ld and at top of chain under whiskee (who i have continued loyalty bonus with) im pissed to be finding im now 9th down from the top!!!


Top does NOT mean more xp, but it does IMO show my loyalty to LD , i could have gone ff to ruthless, LSD, Ages along time ago if i had been xp orientated,(and maxed all my skills out) but i wasnt i stayed loyal to LD like alot of other people, and how am i being rewared ?? by being moved DOWN in placement on th new 100 m chain
The person at the top WILL receive more xp, if all of the top producers are grouped together. The chain listing as published sorts the characters by xp production. You are #9 because that where your xp numbers put you. As far as showing your loyalty and not going to Ruthless or any of the xp-only chains, I'm glad you didn't. You're fun to hunt with, to chat with, and you're an asset to the clan. At the same time, every other member of the chain could have gone to Ruthless,etc. too. I'll rant about loyalty at the bottom of my reply. Regarding being rewarded? You are neither being rewarded nor being punished by being placed in the listing where you are. I went back as far as I could in the ACStats database, which ended up being a few days after the allegiance change patch. With the changes to the passthrough rate that had happened I couldn't go back any farther than that. Placement was based on past xp production. Kazsam is #9. Oof is #21. We are where we are supposed to be.

Kazsam said:
unTil now i hav fully supported the chain managers decsisons, but now i really dont see where they are coming from,

I am VERY unhappy about my new placement in the new 100 M chain and my reason for being there. !!!
We (mostly me this time) are coming from the place I said we would, by sorting by xp production, then grouping and sorting based on those numbers. The placement by xp is based on feedback from managers, from looking at the production numbers (which showed a clear direction on where to go) and the fact that chain rules ARE different now. The loss of the 93.75% passthrough dramatically changed what can and can't happen in a chain.

Thorgrim said:
I too have to agree 300% with Kaz on this one. I'm very disapointed. Perhaps its just Ego talking, and even though I stand to lose my loyalty bonus by leaving Muneman and swearing to Kaz, I'm highly disappointed with BOTH our placements. Ive been in the clan, and the chain for almost 2 years. HIGHLY disapointed.
It is just ego talking. Ego is not necessarily a bad thing, but, yes, it is your ego talking. The production numbers don't suggest placing you and Kazsam being at the top. Emotions, yes, but the numbers, no. I'll answer your reference to loyalty time in the chain and placement at the end of my reply.

Thorgrim said:
Its always been my dream to rise to the top of a chain. For me, its a prestige point. I've allways looked to people at the top, and aspired to be there. Guys like Trinity Willow, Seabrook, Kaz. Please rethink your decision! I would like to see Kaz keep her spot, and Loyalty bonus, and See me swear to her. (I hear she gives nice gifts to vassals!) No, thats not true, But I have gotten some axe's off of her.

PLEASE CHAIN MANAGERS. rethink this. If its no big deal, then why shouldn't you change it?
Thorgrim, you swing a really big axe and people will look to that no matter where you are in a chain listing. If Kazsam wants to keep her spot and her loyalty bonus she can, but it means she will stay in the OH. She is currently sworn to Whiskee, and Whiskee isn't going to the new chain, so if she wanted to keep the loyalty bonus it means staying in the OH. If she moves to the new chain her loyalty bonus will be reset regardless, as will yours because Muneman is staying in the OH for now.

--------------------------------------------------

I have something to say about loyalty, the clan, the chain, and rewards thereof. Kazsam, and Thorgrim, and almost every other current chain member need to rethink what is being said about "I should be rewarded." Kazsam stated she's been in the clan for 19 months and at the top of the chain under Whiskee. Thorgrim stated he has been in the clan and chain for nearly two years and that he is highly disappointed in both of their placements. I have a chain listing from shortly after I joined the chain. I was at the bottom of the chain, and neither Kazsam nor Thorgrim is on that listing. It's dated in July of 2002, though I think I remember joining in June. It is back from when it was still the Chain of Pain, or the Private Chain, or whatever it was called at the time, back in the days of manually posting quota. I'm sure there are other characters in the chain now who have been in longer than me.

If placement was about time served Thorgrim wouldn't be #8, Kazsam #9 and Oof #21. Like I stated earlier in this post, any and every character in the chain could have joined one of the xp-only chains out there, so the mere fact of staying in an LD chain doesn't warrant special placement.

Is it about loyalty? Define that for me please. Which takes more loyalty, staying in your spot in the chain, making quota, and getting free xp? Or staying in the chain, making quota, etc, and giving up WAY too much of your game time to help manage the silly chain? You want to talk about loyalty to the clan? Oof was probably number 3 or 4, or something like that in the chain listing when he hit 200. I pulled him from a very nice spot, xp-wise, and anchored him in the bottom position of the OH so that I could help push a little extra XP back into the bottom of the chain that had done so much for me. At the same time that I did that I issued a challenge/plea/request encouraging other chain members to drop back to the bottom as they hit 200. I said that if enough of us did that we could have everyone to 200 within months. Not a single character dropped down and joined me. Dropping to the bottom like I did cost Oof literally billions of XP. Don't talk to me about being loyal to the clan and chain and then say that loyalty should be rewarded.

Now, why was Blue Wizard, Acaddict and Tusami placed at the top and Thorgrim and Kazsam placed in the 8th and 9th spot respectively? Because during the timeframe for which I could gather data the numbers dictated that placement. Blue Wizzard added 794 million xp to the chain in that time. Thorgrim added 276 million and Kazsam added 267 million. That's why Thorgrim is in the chain listing above Kazsam. (To keep things in perspective Oof added 18 million.) Here is an abbreviated listing of the numbers I based chain placement on.

Code: Select all

1 ) Blue Wizard 794M
2 ) Acaddict  750M range
3 ) Tusami  750M range
4 ) Vitos 500M range
5 ) Diabolical Mage 500M range
6 ) Thunderblade 500M range

After that, there was a clear separation between characters

7 ) Illumination 277M
8 ) Thorgrim 276M
9 ) Kazsam 267M
10 ) Iron horse II 267M
11 ) Smiley 228M
and so forth down to 
15 ) Neue Regel 117M

Directly under Neue Regel, quota dropped immediately to the 70M, 50M, 40M and lower range.
Could we have arranged characters differently? Sure we could have. Based on what? Time in the chain? Amount given back to the chain? You get in a never ending turmoil if we were to have gone down that particular road. There would always be someone saying CharA has been here longer than CharB, or CharC is more deserving because...

In the past it didn't matter so much if the chain order was strictly performance-based. Someone could slack for a while and no one would notice. We could leave basicaly non-hunting characters like Whiskee (one of Youkay's characters) and Zataki between the top of the chain and the monarch, because 93.75% of the xp passed through and it went a long way before it died off. That isn't true anymore. You want to know who really got screwed over in the allegiance changes? The monarchs. You know what would happen if we put lower producing characters above the highest producing characters in the chain? That 500 million xp difference between Blue Wizzard's output and the next group of people would disappear instead of reaching the monarch. So, would it hurt the chain if we put the top of the chain based on longevity (which still wouldn't put Kaz on the top of the new chain)? No, it wouldn't hurt the chain directly. But it would hurt the monarch. Plus, without timestamps of who has actually been here the longest, rewarding anything except xp output (for an xp chain) doesn't make any sense.

BTW, for what it's worth, Panzerfaust has never complained to me about the xp drying up after the allegiance changes. To me though, it's just common sense that we should take care of the monarch.

/rant off
Last edited by Oof on Sat Mar 27, 2004 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Allegiance Council Member
Oof@lastdynasty.net

User avatar
Thorgrim
Farmer
Farmer
Posts: 610
Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 6:15 pm
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada
Contact:

Post by Thorgrim » Sat Mar 27, 2004 5:33 am

WHERE TO BEGIN:

I guess I have to start by saying that both my, and Kaz's posts stopped short perhaps to sounding a bit on the winey side. But I know it wasn't meant to sound that way. Its definately bothering both of us. The top of the chain was always something to aspire to (for me, and I know it was for kaz) I know Oof, you have a thankless job. And I TOTALLY disagree with the fact that you have to make quota. I always have. Thats not fair to you.

So you joined around July 2002, I created Thorgrim June 2002, and with in a few weeks I was level 44, and I joined LD, and the Chain (whatever the name was then) The main chain manager at the time was......Hmmm. Whats his name now?? He's gone now. New Zealander I believe........Great guy none the less. Real young guy too.

LD is the only chain that did not have very many NON QUOTA members. It had Zataki and Youkay, and Whiskee as their only non quota members (I believe) And why? RESPECT. LOYALTY? Sure. And why not?

Oof, absolutely every single thing you said down below made 100% sense. I can't take anything away from you there. But I can't help but feel betrayed a bit buy the way things were decided upon. I know, Panzer gets the main screwjob here out of all of this. But thats not my fault. Turbine nerfed xp chains. Not me, Not you, Not Kaz. Nobody is mroe disappointed than myself. (well, ok, Maybe guys like ruthless) but lets not go there. I could have went to both Ruthless, and Ages. I was guaranteed a TOP spot in Ages by a friend of mine (chain manager just before the xp nerf) and I decided to stay with my little chain.

Seriously, I've always said Free xp's is FREE XP"S. nothing more to say to that. But I'm seriously starting to wonder if its going to be too much work for the actual amount of xp's I'll actually be getting. (I know, I know, Try it, you might like it) And thats what I plan to do.

But how could you be so bold as to take note of the last 3 months of xp figures, and make your judgement on those numbers? What about the countless months that MANY people have remained well over 100% pass up. I'm talking about myself here mainly I suppose, cause I can't say I truely memorize the figures.

Ok, it just might be ego talking here. It might be.

Oof, I really have to commend you on dropping down into the lower ranks of the chain once you hit 200. But Ya know what, at the top of the chain, the xp's SUCKED! The absolutely SUCKED. I have guys like Con Artist, I B Six, they were receveving almost double what I was getting at the top (from the middle) So the top of the chain was never about more xp's for me. NEVER. So you droppped down to boost some xp's, Maybe you did, But maybe, the exp's were slightly better where you dropped? I mean absolutely no disrespect by this.

And what about all these felloships with pusher mules? Was this just a blatant attempt at getting "these trade mules" higher levels while leaching xp's?? I'm sorry, but I never agreed with the so called pusher fellowships. Don't get me wrong, I participated with the best of them. How could I not, I too held the bottom spot for over 20 levels. Working your way to the top was one of my goals. I almost had it. Legitimately too! But now, after having to bitch about it, and beg for it, just doesn't seem right.

Chains aren't clans. I don't care what anybody says. Chains are CHAINS. I joined a chain first, Just happens I really liked the clan, so I stayed in. I met a lot of REALLY great people. Logging in is fun, cause ya never know what anybody is gonna say next. We have a lot of crazy people in this clan. The better part of them, honestly, aren't in any chains!!! (sorry to say that) But its true. Only a minority of them ever post on the public boards. Most of them, keep to themselves, making quota, logging in to hunt only.

These are just my opinions I suppose. ANd Oof, nobody would know the chains, and their numbers than you. No denying that. But as for the person getting the biggest shaft, (panzer? maybe, but Ireally have to say you're a REALLY close second to the shaft) Nobody should have to do the amount of work you do, and still have to make quota. I've always felt that was wrong, and I dont' know why I never said anything. But now, with the new nerfs, that can never be reversed.

I'm sorry about that.


I read your post, and I can see that there's probably no changing your mind, or anybody else's mind. But I can honestly say, I'm feeling a bit betrayed by this decision. Basing your judgement on only 3 months of figures instead of over a years worth. Couldnt' go back that far?? Well, I don't need any concrete proof to know I worked my arse off, and my numbers prove that I've given more than I've received. As did Kaz. Its seriously not about the xp's in this case. Cause as I've stated above, xp's at the top of a chain SUCK. compared to the middle lets say?

No disrespect intended towards any of the players currently placed above us. Thats not my goal. Don't mean to sound like a "CRY BABY" either. But I'm certain thats how it comes across. I'm just wondering if the new XTREME chain will be worth the xp's for the amount of work we'll have to put across. Time will tell.

I can't compliment you on your placements, and alignment of the chain. Ive spent almost 2 years banging nails, burning the midnight oil, and workin overtime to be pleased about this, and not hurt in the process. Most say, "Its just a game" but we all know different. IT is just a game, but I betcha its as addictive as any drug.

Time will tell, But I Disagree tremendously with your placements. Slap in the face me thinks to Kaz, and Thor. That is all.

Thorgrim :(
Kill em' All, Let God Sort em out.
HAR HAR!!!
Live and Let Live
I should be Monarch

Kazsam
Professional Farmer
Professional Farmer
Posts: 1229
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2003 5:28 pm

Post by Kazsam » Sat Mar 27, 2004 10:04 am

I agree with Thorgrim last post totally, and the main part being
But how could you be so bold as to take note of the last 3 months of xp figures, and make your judgement on those numbers? What about the countless months that MANY people have remained well over 100% pass up.
Only reason xp has dipped since beginning of year is whilst people have been awaiting the new chain to be decided and sorted out, beofre that passup was always way over 100% so basing your placement TOTALLY on this is totally unfair. Maybe you should have weighed up time in clan against the xp produced since jan rather than going for figures alone. In fact alphabetical order or time in chian already would have been much fairer IMO, at least they would have been things that couldnt have changed in the last 3 mnths, they are a much more stable "figure" to go by.

Please remove me from the new 100 m chain listing , i no longer have the incentive for this new chain, where loyalty to clan (and huge passup since i joined in sept 2002) means nothing, just xp whores (no disrepect intended to those above me ) some of who have only been in the clan for a short time are being more noticed.

If this chain had taken off right after nerfs were introduced like managers had said it would you would have had totally differnet figures to work with

I didnt get to lvl 217 without putting in hours of hunting over a long period of time, so making you total decision over the last 3 mnths is a mistake imo....you know that I and thorgrim and others i guess are good for passing up huge xp to the monach at the top.
[img]http://lastdynasty.net/pics/kazsamsig.jpg[/img]
<Shindhi_AC> without you kaz, AC woudl be a lot more boring =)

User avatar
Thorgrim
Farmer
Farmer
Posts: 610
Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 6:15 pm
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada
Contact:

Post by Thorgrim » Sat Mar 27, 2004 1:02 pm

With what Kaz said, I have no choice but to ask to NOT be put in the chain also. No malice in this message at all, but I have to be realistic also. Summer season is coming, and I work construction (PLUMBER.......I LAY PIPE!) and I'm gonna be ONE BUSY PIPE LAYER! The truth of the matter is I'd probably just fail quota from the get go.

I choose to follow Kaz into the unknown I suppose. I think I have since been removed from the OH also. (which is too bad for me I guess) Two huge pushers the LD chain loses because of the disillusionment of what Loyalty is. No HAR HAR in that Iguess.


Thorgrim
Kill em' All, Let God Sort em out.
HAR HAR!!!
Live and Let Live
I should be Monarch

User avatar
Oof
Allegiance Council
Posts: 5453
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2003 4:13 pm

Post by Oof » Sat Mar 27, 2004 3:36 pm

Business of the day:

Kazsam's removal orders from the OH have been cancelled.

Thorgrim, when I looked at the stats listing you still show as a vassal of Muneman's. The removal orders affecting you had Anca swearing to Muneman. Those orders removed both you and Ly'Sham Slik. It's an easy thing to get Anca to swear back under you, especially since you're still in the chain structure. Then we will be back to basically the old chain structure of Kazsam, Muneman, Thorgrim, etc. Please post to let me know for sure if that is what you would like to happen.

-----------------------------------------
Reply to the replies:

Thank you Thorgrim for your reply earlier. Yes, I did take Kazsam's and your posts as being pissy. I was perhaps influenced in thinking that by your leading statements. :shock:

Kazsam said:
Ok the more i think about it the more pissed i am!!!
Thorgrim said:
I too have to agree 300% with Kaz on this one.
My original post in the announcement of the new chain said I would go back three months in the data. That timeframe was in the announcement when people signed up. The time to complain about the timeframe would have been then, not now, not after orders have been posted and are starting to be completed, not after characters are getting displaced and then asking us to redo things.

Kazsam said,
Maybe you should have weighed up time in clan against the xp produced since jan rather than going for figures alone. In fact alphabetical order or time in chian already would have been much fairer IMO, at least they would have been things that couldnt have changed in the last 3 mnths, they are a much more stable "figure" to go by.
With the change in passthrough percentage going from 93.75% to 10% and with Zataki fixing the database to reflect the different passthrough numbers, I figured any numbers older than the change would invalidate any comparison. The numbers would be completely skewed, and all mixed together (the old apples and oranges analogy).

That being said, I did go back this morning as far as the database has records and pulled those numbers. Who is on top xp-wise? Acaddict. The database only goes back to November of last year, so those numbers date back to January and another two months besides. In case no one remembers, the database got corrupted a while back and had to be rebuilt. November is absolutely the oldest numbers I have access to.

Regarding using some other method for determining placement, sure, we could have gone alphabetically, or on time in-chain, or reverse alphabetically, or whatever. Since this is an xp chain, at least basing the placement on xp production has some correlation to the reason the xp chain exists. I am assuming you were being facetious when you suggested alphabetical, but just in case...

Alphabetical: The L - Z people get mad.
Reverse alphabetical: The A - M people get mad.

Either way, K is in the middle. One way Thorgrim would come out a little higher, the other way, a little lower.

Time in the chain: I have absolutely no way of knowing the times for people. No way. I know about when I joined, and have a rough idea for Kazsam and Thorgrim. Some of the people I know haven't been in very long. For people like Blue Wizard, who was in the chain before many of us even existed and who quit the chain when he quit the game because of RL requirements and who has come back again, I have no way to add up the total "time served." I have no way of measuring how long someone has been in the chain, and no way of verifying whether a date someone gives me is correct. We would have a seemingly endless stream of complaints of Joe saying he has been in longer than Sam, and Sam saying he has been in longer than Joe. Time-based isn't workable.

The bottom line is that NO method will make everyone happy. Was basing placement on xp numbers fair? It is as fair as any method, and is infinitely more measurable than any other method we could think of.

If you remember, when we started the OH, placement was done based on a combination of posting order and of maintaining loyalty bonuses (vassal loyalty bonus, not loyalty to the clan). Turbine effectively killed long-term loyalty bonuses with the allegiance changes so that part doesn't make any sense any more. I got screamed at a lot for using a first-come, first-placed basis the last time, and I wasn't going to go through that again.

Kazsam said:
I didnt get to lvl 217 without putting in hours of hunting over a long period of time, so making you total decision over the last 3 mnths is a mistake imo....you know that I and thorgrim and others i guess are good for passing up huge xp to the monach at the top.
I never said you aren't good for passing up huge amounts of xp, you obviously are. Others pass up more xp, that's the nature of chains. It also makes sense to group the highest producing members together since the passthrough of xp to multiple characters doesn't work anymore. I would no more place Kazsam or Thorgrim with 270ish million added to the top of the listing then I would Heatmiser with 70 million or Oof with 18 million. We've all been in the chain a very long time. As soon as I place anyone atop the 800 million producers (anyone who isn't also producing 750M - 800M in a quota cycle) other people in the chain will start screaming "Why not me?"

Can either Kazsam or Thorgrim provide me with a listing of how the chain listing SHOULD look, based on loyalty rewards? You can't just stop if with the top couple of positions either. If you provide a listing you have to place every single member in the proper spot and if it's based on loyalty to the chain (presumably that means time in the chain, from the sounds of it) you have to be able to back up the placement of every single member.

If you can provide me with a complete listing for everyone, where they are placed, and why they are placed there, I'll look at it. I'll promise you this too, if you can provide me a loyalty-based listing that is verifiable as accurate I will take it to the chain managers and we'll look at it. If it looks like the better solution we'll scrap what we have and redo the listing. I'll tell you right now though, that you can't do it because the data doesn't exist or is inaccessible. Even if you get a listing together based on loyalty, Kazsam and Thorgrim won't be the number one and two spot because I know there are characters who have been in longer.

None of my responses are meant to sound insulting to anyone, nor are they meant to make anyone feel unwelcome in the chain(s). The bottom line is there is no perfect way to do chain placement. At least placing members based on xp has a logical relation to the purpose for an xp chain, and it is something that is measurable. Time in the chain for everyone isn't easily measurable; it probably isn't even possible to measure it.
Allegiance Council Member
Oof@lastdynasty.net

User avatar
Oof
Allegiance Council
Posts: 5453
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2003 4:13 pm

Post by Oof » Sat Mar 27, 2004 3:47 pm

Oh, I'll add this too. If you all (all chain members) want a way to get to the top, we can put in a promotion policy for the 100 million chain. Since Turbine has drastically changed the way vassal loyalty vs xp works now, the 240 hours sworn isn't as big a deal as it used to be. Since we are shortening the quota reporting window to two weeks from three any promotion cycles will be faster.

It can't be based on levels, because levels don't work anymore when you're talking about a billion+ xp per level. Any promotion policy would be based on xp produced, and nothing more. We will have to work out the numbers after we see how (or if) the chain will work.

Kazsam and Thorgrim, if a promotion policy and the ability to position yourself at number one in our chain "king-of-the-mountan" game changes your mind about whether to join the new chain or stay in the OH, you are certainly welcome to move to the new chain and prove to all that Oof screwed up and should have placed you on top. :P
Allegiance Council Member
Oof@lastdynasty.net

luang
High Council
Posts: 883
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:13 pm

Post by luang » Sat Mar 27, 2004 3:54 pm

Much <3 for Oof.
Luang, lvl 126 no-magic UA/Xbow
Starting Over, lvl 190 pocket mage and tinkerer
Solclaim Economy Report : http://www.solclaim.be

Kazsam
Professional Farmer
Professional Farmer
Posts: 1229
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2003 5:28 pm

Post by Kazsam » Sat Mar 27, 2004 4:50 pm

I would like to think after all my time dedictaed to LD i would be seen as a little more than "pissy"

Please continue the swear around of kazsam, i want nothing more to do with the chain.

I doubt you will rember but i wasnt orignally going to move to the OH, but was asked to so chain loyalites could remain, guess thats the only loyalty the chain understands.

If whiskee can spare the slot i would like to contnue to be his vassal, till i decide what i shall do with my chars.

I shall be staying in LD, I like the majority of people in the clan.

Thank you
[img]http://lastdynasty.net/pics/kazsamsig.jpg[/img]
<Shindhi_AC> without you kaz, AC woudl be a lot more boring =)

User avatar
Oof
Allegiance Council
Posts: 5453
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2003 4:13 pm

Post by Oof » Sat Mar 27, 2004 5:48 pm

Duly noted. I'll instruct Muneman to continue with the orders as originally posted.

Kaz, I said I took the posts you and Thorgrim made in that light, not that I categorized YOU as being pissy. You have consistently been one of the nicest, most helpful people in the clan. Yours and Thogrim's posts were based on emotion and on thinking what you want as individuals. They were not made thinking about what is best for the chain as a whole.

I do remember the creation of the OH and you going to it in order to preserve loyalty bonuses, passup to the bosses, etc. Rules change, rules put in place by Turbine. Before, if someone reswore their xp passup was potentially cut in half and slowly built up again over 240 hours of ingame time. XP passup capped at 44% then, according to Turbine, and with a 93.75% passthrough rate, and xp generated was felt in the chain up through 10 - 15 characters. With the current 10% passthrough, let's say you are at the top and you pass up a billion xp to Whiskee. Whiskee would pass up 100M of that to Nakamuro Zataki. Zataki would pass up 10M of that to Youkay. Youkay would pass up to Panzerfaust a whopping 1 million xp out of the billion you gave to Whiskee. I mean no disrepect at all to Whiskee (Youkay) or to Zataki (who no longer plays), but sucking a billion xp down to a million isn't right.

Now, the loyalty bonus does SOMETHING, we're not sure what just yet. It's a mix of 240 (presumably this number hasn't changed) hours and a longterm RL time requirement. This lengthening of the loyalty bonus time is offset by the fact that xp passup in general is much higher than before. With buffed loyalty and leader of 150, a little vassal can pass up >40%. I swore Oof to Trouser Snake and tested xp passup. A new swear and both of us having loyalty or leader buffed to 200 or so netted 66% passup. The whole reason for maintaining long swearing times went out of the window with Turbine's allegiance changes.

Regarding other loyalty, the kind I think you're talking about, the loyalty that comes from staying with a chain for a long time, you have a certain measure of "special" (I don't know a better term to use) in that you have been with the clan and chain for a long time and I'm not denying any of that. You aren't alone in that category though, and neither you nor Thorgrim have provided any concrete reason why you should be treated as "more special" than any of several other characters in the chain.

Regarding "the only loyalty the chain understands", the chain exists as a service to the clan members who choose to use it as a way to leverage additional xp. That additional xp comes at the cost of knowing the members will HAVE to hunt a certain amount. If the clan decide it wants an xp chain whose primary purpose is to reward longevity with the clan and/or a chain, we can certainly create a loyalty-based chain. The 100 million chain exists for one purpose, and that is to maximize xp. Chains are impartial beasts because their mechanics work on numbers. Start throwing emotion in there, or showing favortism because a manager likes someone, or continuing to do something because it made sense in the past but no longer does because of changes in the game mechanics, and problems start.

I truly hate that you, Thorgrim, and probably others who are remaining silent are upset by this. I offered you a way in my earlier response to provide me a fix for this, a way to make the listing that way it "should" be. I'm not above making mistakes, though I don't believe the current chain listing is one of them. I'm not above admitting when I'm wrong if I'm shown a better way. If you truly think I made a mistake then please show me how to fix it. If, after thinking about it, you decide I provided the best choice from among several unhappy choices then please tell me you couldn't find a better way to draw up the listing and that what I did was okay.

[Edited to take out a part where my brain was more tired than my fingers and I wrote something stupid.]
Last edited by Oof on Sat Mar 27, 2004 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Allegiance Council Member
Oof@lastdynasty.net

Locked